How the builders of Stalker 2 weathered the Ukraine struggle to make their sport | The DeanBeat

If anybody can say they’ve had challenges making a sport, the workforce making S.T.A.L.Okay.E.R 2: The Coronary heart of Chornobyl could make that declare. And if it ships the sport to customers on November 20, that can be a victory in itself.

But the builders of GSC Sport World in Kyiv, Ukraine wish to ship this sport to indicate that they by no means gave up on a venture that has been getting into full gear for almost seven years and talked about even longer. They haven’t given up although the workforce was disrupted when Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale struggle on February 24, 2022. Russia had attacked earlier than in 2014, seizing a few territories. However this was a struggle for management of all of Ukraine, and the struggle continues to today.

Builders needed to go away to go to struggle. The electrical energy usually went out and it nonetheless goes out in Kyiv, the place the majority of the workforce is. Missiles usually rained down on town they usually nonetheless do, with anti-missile rockets intercepting the incoming missiles earlier than they’ll do hurt.

If and after they ship their sport, they need to be an inspiration for an trade that has had suffered by layoffs, declining gross sales, a pandemic, social media hate, and extra up to now few years. If GSC Sport World can get this finished, then others can overcome their hurdles too, similar to these Ukraine athletes who received the medals for his or her nation within the Olympics.

I spoke with Ievgen Grygorovych, CEO of GSC Sport World, and Maria Grygorovych, inventive director at Gamescom. They’re a husband-and-wife workforce, operating one in every of Ukraine’s greatest and finest recognized sport corporations with 460 workers. But they’re simply an indie sport studio. They unfold out into new areas similar to Poland and Prague and elsewhere, with some working distant.

Ievgen’s brother Sergiy began GSC Sport World in 1995 as an organization that localized video games to the Russian market. It went on to create the Cossacks sequence of video games, and it started growing and publishing its personal in addition to third-party video games. Ievgen joined the corporate in 2001.

S.T.A.L.Okay.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl got here out in 2007 and it was successful as a first-person shooter. It mixed concepts from the novel Roadside Picnic with the true world catastrophe of the Chornobyl nuclear meltdown, positing that this created a Zone the place hunters often called Stalkers may go to search out anomalous treasures. However they ran the danger of operating into enemies together with monsters unleashed by the radioactive contamination.

Two extra Stalker video games got here out in 2008 and 2009, however none was known as Stalker 2. In truth, the prior CEO, who was Ievgen’s brother, requested him to make Stalker 2 and Ievgen stated no as a result of he didn’t suppose the workforce was able to tackle such a giant venture. The corporate introduced Stalker 2 in 2012, however that workforce by no means completed and it was rebooted altogether afterward.

Ievgen finally relented. “It was a crazy business decision to start this project, but we were sure that we would do everything possible,” Ievgen Grygorovych stated in our interview.

Abandoning earlier instructions, they created a plan and constructed a brand new workforce. They labored on getting the script proper from the beginning. After six rewrites, they lastly began shifting ahead.

Even with out these exterior challenges, the sport was bold, even for builders who had been engaged on video games for many years. The workforce began with new expertise. They got here up with an inventory of duties and broke it down into tons of of 1000’s of duties, Ievgen Grygorovych stated. By the tip of the method, lots of their members of the family misplaced family members within the struggle.

One Stalker 2 developer, Volodymyr Yezhov, was killed within the struggle with Russia. In December 2022, he died in a battle close to Bakhmut, defending town from Russian attackers. GSC Gameworld has made quite a few donations to reason for Ukraine and it solicits funds from guests to its website as nicely.

Throughout all this time, they by no means thought of shutting down the sport. They felt like a duty towards their nation to get it finished, to place Ukraine on the map of the sport improvement world. Once they noticed their countrymen and ladies win medals on the Summer time Olympics, they have been proud, they usually need the nation to be happy with their work on Stalker 2 — even to the purpose of utilizing the Ukrainian model of the spelling of Chornobyl (as a substitute of the Russian Chernobyl).

It’s been a tough highway and the longest journey. With some delight, the Stalker 2 leaders joined an image with the Xbox European sport dev workforce in Cologne, Germany. What’s their final lesson? In sport improvement, you must actually love the method, Maria Grygorovych stated.

Right here’s an edited transcript of our interview. Disclosure: Devcom paid my the place to Cologne, the place I moderated a few panels on the Devcom developer occasion.

GamesBeat: How do you keep resilient sufficient to do that for such a very long time?

Ievgen Grygorovych: It’s a tough venture for us. It’s large. We began from scratch. We began with new expertise. We began earlier than the present era of consoles appeared. We began with a largely new workforce. We had a complete lack of expertise within the transfer to consoles. We have been a PC-only sport developer earlier than. It was a loopy enterprise choice to start out this venture, however we have been positive that we might do every part doable. We had loads of expertise making video games. I’ve about 24 years making video games.

Up to now we have been requested at completely different instances to make a Stalker 2. All of the earlier instances I refused to start out making it, as a result of it’s a really bold venture. The participant expectations could be very excessive. It will be a really lengthy journey, a really onerous journey. If you’re not very younger and also you perceive what that’s going to be like, the way you’d should work and the way aggravating it could be, it’s onerous to say, “Yes, I’m ready to do that.” If you’re younger and skilled you don’t know what you’ll should undergo making this type of sport. You’re extra prone to say sure.

The final time, we talked with Maria and we determined it was time to do it. We began from that time. It’s been a giant a part of our lifetime. From what I can see now, it’s going to be an excellent sport. We’re pleased with what we may obtain. We didn’t anticipate that we might do it, however we did it. We’re nonetheless a bit nervous. You by no means know the way gamers are going to take your sport. However inside me I believe that we’ve finished every part doable in our state of affairs.

We’re an unbiased developer. Now we have loads of limitations that different builders may not have. Now we have all of the conditions linked to the struggle with Russia. With all these difficulties, we’ve nonetheless come so far the place we’re close to the discharge. It’s been an extended journey.

GamesBeat: How lengthy have you ever labored on Stalker?

Maria Grygorovych: For me it’s been since 2017.

Ievgen Grygorovych: Sure, the identical for me.

GamesBeat: The primary set of video games, the primary three video games, did you’re employed on these?

Ievgen Grygorovych: I used to be working with the corporate, however on completely different video games at that time. I hadn’t been engaged on Stalker. However we sat simply close by. I used to be within the RTS improvement division, main the RTS line. I’ve been with GSC since 2001. I had labored there part-time earlier than, however 2001 is after I joined up as a full-time job.

Maria Grygorovych: I labored in cinema and TV earlier than I joined GSC. In 2016 they requested me to assist out for a few days. It’s been eight years since. I used to be a producer on some tasks at first.

Ievgen Grygorovych: She had expertise that might assist us with video games that have been approaching launch.

GamesBeat: When you consider how lengthy it’s been, do you consider it as sure levels? Altering instructions or engaged on various things. How do you clarify the time concerned?

Ievgen Grygorovych: There’s a sure diploma of uncertainty right here. After we began, we didn’t have a blueprint for growing these sorts of video games. We began by writing a brand new plot and story. At first we needed to collect the workforce that will do that venture. The primary huge discover was a narrative author. We discovered somebody with loads of expertise within the improvement trade in Ukraine. He has rather more expertise than I do. We received began engaged on the story, and after we appeared on the first idea, we stated, “No, this isn’t Stalker 2.” We moved away from that and began once more.

Ultimately it was absolutely rewritten about six instances. These are lengthy tales. He’s knowledgeable. He wasn’t afraid to drop all of it and begin once more. After these six instances, we had the story we needed to inform with our sport. We have been pleased with it. It was very detailed. The entire historical past of this world, ranging from 1960 till the sport begins. That was the place we may begin.

Then we took on constructing the world map. We knew it could be an open world, however how huge? Is it 16 sq. kilometers or 64? It was somewhat loopy. We determined to do one thing larger than everybody often does. We did eight kilometers on a facet, 64 sq. kilometers. It has loads of underground areas as nicely, loads of tall buildings. There are areas above and beneath. Total, the realm is large.

Maria Grygorovych: I don’t suppose we actually developed this sport any greater than anybody often does. Lots of corporations have rather more expertise. They’ve their workforce constructed from the start. They’ve some huge cash. They don’t have any points with a struggle occurring, something like that. They usually nonetheless work on a sport for six or seven years. In our case, we began this sport from scratch with a very new workforce. We had corona, struggle, issues with the electrical energy. Half of our workforce has had loads of hassle with the electrical energy for the previous two years. They’ll’t work correctly day-after-day. With all these points, we’re nonetheless near launch. Lots of corporations take that a lot time with none of those points.

GamesBeat: I keep in mind Stalker 2 being introduced a very long time in the past. How lengthy has this venture taken?

Maria Grygorovych: There was a reset, so this has been about six years. This has a very completely different workforce, a very completely different strategy. Nothing is similar.

GamesBeat: You talked about there have been different video games, however nothing you considered Stalker 2. What did it imply to you to have one thing that may very well be known as Stalker 2?

Ievgen Grygorovych: I actually love my earlier video games. A few of them have been very profitable. Some weren’t so profitable from a participant’s perspective, however they have been profitable for us as expertise in making one thing distinctive. For me, I can say that Stalker 2 is one thing completely epic. Beforehand I had expertise with RPGs, with turn-based technique, and with a mixture of RTS and RPG. A few of these have been very completely different, very experimental tasks. It wasn’t simply copy-paste. Stalker 2 was simpler than that in a method, as a result of we had Stalker to start out from. The brand new sport ought to be a successor, persevering with what we had within the first sport.

We had some foundation for the gameplay design, a blueprint for what we needed to obtain. In that sense it was simpler. However having completely new expertise, a very open world and so forth, that was an enormous problem. Making a really huge sport sounds tough, however like every tough activity, you possibly can break it down into smaller duties, after which it is going to be easy. You simply should do tons of and 1000’s of easy duties. It simply takes loads of time. You must be a really calm individual to work six years with out having a product you possibly can share. It’s a lot simpler to do quick tasks, the place you could have one thing to launch after a cycle of, say, two years.

Maria Grygorovych: In sport improvement you really want to like the method. Actual satisfaction will come after these six years. It’s essential love the method that leads as much as that. You could possibly have a few youngsters in that a lot time. If you really want to have that satisfaction straight away, you may not wish to go into sport improvement. It’s essential be a affected person individual.

Ievgen Grygorovych: I like the method of improvement, fixing these duties.

Maria Grygorovych: It’s essential love and respect the folks you’re employed with, should you’re going to spend so a few years with the identical folks.

GamesBeat: I’m in a science fiction e book membership. I learn Roadside Picnic, and I used to be astonished by how completely different it was from Stalker. Do you see any resemblance to that authentic materials?

Ievgen Grygorovych: We really didn’t have a goal to make a sport by the e book. It’s very completely different, as you say. We stay in a very new time. There’s loads of new science fiction now. Sport design is rather more superior. We will’t simply make good science fiction. Now we have to make a superb sport. The story must drive that sport. We weren’t aiming to make it by the e book.

GamesBeat: It looks as if the Zone could be the one factor that’s nonetheless there from the e book. The concept of a particular place on the planet that’s very completely different.

Ievgen Grygorovych: The largest factor that Stalker 2 takes from the e book is the thought of those anomalies, sure. They’ve unknown origins. When you haven’t examined it, you don’t know the way they work. Lots of people have died to know how these anomalies work within the sport world, simply as within the e book. The concept of artifacts, objects have some unknown impact that additionally must be found. And the thought of an object you employ to search out the anomalies.

Every thing else is completely different. It’s a special location, about 100 kilometers away from our house in Kyiv. It’s an actual place, and it’s an enormous catastrophe after the Chornobyl accident. It has loads of connection to our private tales. I used to be born within the yr of the nuclear catastrophe. Our mother and father may inform by the earth shaking that one thing was occurring, however the authorities didn’t inform them something. Nonetheless, everybody may see that one thing was occurring. They determined to maneuver me and my brother away from Kyiv to a different a part of Ukraine, to Donetsk, with my grandparents. It’s very linked to what occurred in our lives. Ranging from this a part of the world, it’s logical for us as Ukrainian builders.

However briefly, it’s very completely different from the e book. It’s influenced by our experiences, private experiences, and a few options from the e book. That’s the way you get the sport.

GamesBeat: The struggle got here to disrupt every part. What needed to change for you? What did you must do to adapt as soon as that began?

Ievgen Grygorovych: The quick reply is that every part modified. Nevertheless it’s completely different if you take a look at the workforce’s private lives, our private lives, how we stay, our targets, our pursuits. For the event, it was a really onerous second. However we have been ready. We had ready every part in order to not let this have an effect on, as a lot as doable, our workforce’s lives, their households’ lives. We have been prepared for evacuation earlier than the struggle began, and we did it.

Maria Grygorovych: Nonetheless, it’s a very completely different life from the day earlier than the struggle began. Emotionally, for everybody – everybody in Ukraine, everybody on our workforce – it’s a degree the place you perceive won’t ever be the identical once more. At some factors it’s onerous to work, emotionally. You see tragedy occurring day-after-day, each couple of days. It’s a ordinary factor for missiles to hit Kyiv close to our workplace. It was actually scary at first, and it’s nonetheless actually scary now. You possibly can’t adapt for moments like that.

Ievgen Grygorovych: What occurs if it drops 100 meters, 500 meters away from the goal and it hits your workplace, together with your folks there? What are you going to do at that second? It’s very aggravating. We did every part doable. Now we have a bunker simply close to our workplace. It’s an precise bunker constructed for nuclear assault. We’ve requested everybody to go there when there are missile alarms. However nonetheless, there’s an opportunity it may occur.

Maria Grygorovych: And generally a extremely fast missile strike can occur earlier than the alarms sound. 

Ievgen Grygorovych: It may be a four-minute missile.

Maria Grygorovych: However you should work, so that you simply work. It’s onerous to elucidate to somebody what it’s prefer to work like that, or what you’re feeling. Lots of our family members, folks in our households have died within the struggle. It could be your brother, your mom. A few of our folks have misplaced their mother and father. After that you just go into work and get again to the sport. When you’re doing one thing, it’s somewhat simpler to maintain from going loopy. However on the identical time, it’s been two and a half years. It’ll be three years quickly.

For the individuals who moved to Prague, it’s not the identical as being the standard type of immigrant, the place you resolve to go someplace that you just wish to go, and you may return house everytime you need. It’s completely different being a refugee. It’s not your choice to go away your nation. It’s one thing you needed to do to guard your self, to guard your youngsters or your loved ones. It’s onerous.

GamesBeat: Did you must cease work collectively for some period of time?

Maria Grygorovych: It was virtually two months. 

GamesBeat: Did you contemplate shifting from Kyiv, going additional west?

Maria Grygorovych: From late December 2021 we have been planning for what we might do if an actual struggle began. What workers ought to do. Russia had already attacked Ukraine in 2014, but it surely was only some territories. Now we have been planning for a struggle that will have an effect on the entire nation.

GamesBeat: Did you lose loads of employees who enlisted or have been conscripted?

Maria Grygorovych: Sure. It’s an honor to contemplate them our pals and colleagues. None of them have been skilled troopers. They have been programmers, QA, group managers who determined, even earlier than the full-fledged invasion, that if it occurred they might enlist. They went to the recruiting facilities on the primary day to battle for our nation.

Ievgen Grygorovych: They’re nonetheless our workers.

Maria Grygorovych: After our victory, I hope they’ll come again and maintain working.

GamesBeat: Have any of them been in a position to come again but?

Ievgen Grygorovych: No, they’re nonetheless preventing. There’s virtually no approach to cease for now.

GamesBeat: Did you ever take into consideration stopping the sport, shutting down the venture?

Maria Grygorovych: No, that was by no means an choice. It was only a matter of taking a look at every situation and determining how you can remedy it.

Ievgen Grygorovych: This can be a onerous venture, but it surely’s a weapon in opposition to Russia. When Ukrainians could make one thing so huge, so recognized to the world, it’s a approach to battle on the inventive entrance. We’re not risking our lives, however we’re doing one thing to separate Ukraine from Russia, to focus on Ukraine. These are various things. We’re speaking about what’s occurring in our nation. We received’t let the remainder of the world neglect in regards to the struggle. It’s nonetheless occurring. If we fail, it’s going to be unhealthy for everybody who lives in western Europe and the remainder of the world. We’re holding Russia out of regular life in Europe. We’re doing it by highlighting the struggle with what we do, with our interviews, with no matter methods we have now.

GamesBeat: When you stopped work in Ukraine, Ukraine would develop into weaker. By persevering with this work, it seems like you possibly can assist maintain Ukraine sturdy

Ievgen Grygorovych: Like our sportsmen successful medals on the Olympics. They’re additionally preventing for our nation differently, utilizing the strengths they’ve.

Maria Grygorovych: If you do one thing with loads of love and soul–our dream is that lots of people will love this sport. They’ll perceive that we exist. Ukraine exists. Ukraine can create these items, convey life to nice video games. Like CD Projekt has finished for Poland. Lots of people world wide know of Poland due to CD Projekt. 

Ievgen Grygorovych: We’re bringing Ukraine to your PC display screen.

Maria Grygorovych: However not in an aggressive method. Inside the sport we’re not making an attempt to make an apparent assertion in opposition to Russia. We wish to present like to our tradition and convey that to gamers world wide.

GamesBeat: You’ve drawn loads of help from gamers. Is there something notably memorable you’ve seen?

Ievgen Grygorovych: Now we have lots of people defending us. When somebody who isn’t similar to you is prepared to defend you, to talk for you – “Don’t worry that they changed the release date. These guys are going through a lot.” – for me it’s a method they help us. It’s not simply individuals who would possibly purchase our sport when it releases. They’re preventing for us. That’s been essential to me.

Maria Grygorovych: I’ve seen folks publish some humorous memes. “A developer announces that they’re going to be late because of the coronavirus. Stalker developers: ‘Hold my beer.’”

GamesBeat: As you come towards the end line, what are some belongings you’re nonetheless engaged on? Is there a special feeling now that a number of the most tough work is behind you?

Ievgen Grygorovych: There’s going to be a giant sigh of aid after the discharge. However earlier than that, it’s nonetheless onerous. At this level I can say that loads of the gamers who’ve performed the sport like it. Now we have that proof that we put collectively a superb design and did good work. It’s a lot simpler to complete the sport when you already know that you just’ve reached a superb environment and a superb problem for the gamers. It’s a lot simpler to complete a sport like this when you get it to gamers they usually can check it and let you know what’s good.

GamesBeat: Are you on the level the place you’re getting loads of suggestions from testing?

Ievgen Grygorovych: We nonetheless don’t have it within the fingers of the entire viewers. It’s exterior QA, QC, folks at our writer. However they agree on loads of issues. We all know that there can be at the least some individuals who suppose the identical method.

Maria Grygorovych: Generally, as a developer, you may get within the mindset that it’s actually unhealthy, it’s a catastrophe, there’s no method you possibly can present it to anybody. Then somebody performs it and says, “It’s so cool!” Possibly it’s good in spite of everything? I don’t know many different builders, however inside our firm we all the time wish to do increasingly more. We’ll positively maintain working after the discharge to maintain working towards what we wish to do. We’ve constructed a universe. There’s not likely a degree the place you possibly can say you’re finished and that’s all. We will maintain bringing extra into this world.

Ievgen Grygorovych: Now we have loads of concepts for issues we needed to do in Stalker 2 that we determined ought to wait till after launch. We nonetheless have loads of issues we wish to add to the sport. Launch day isn’t the purpose the place we’ll cease making the sport. It’s simply the purpose the place gamers will get it and begin giving us suggestions. We’ll begin speaking with gamers in regards to the sport design.

Maria Grygorovych: There are some options you possibly can launch with out and it’s completely okay, however you continue to wish to do it, as a result of it’s cool.

GamesBeat: What has working with Microsoft been like?

Ievgen Grygorovych: They’ve been useful round two huge issues. One, the technical half. They devoted an skilled workforce from their expertise group to assist us with optimizing sure issues for Xbox. It’s been superb to work with individuals who have that type of low-level expertise. The second half is emotional help. They’ve been very supportive. They’ve proven the sport on their channels, and never simply because it’s a superb sport, however as a result of–I really feel like they’re sympathetic to our private state of affairs, what we’re going by. They’ve been prepared to help us on a private degree. It’s been crucial for me. If an organization this huge believes in us and is prepared to make use of its sources to assist us, perhaps we’re essential in spite of everything.

Maria Grygorovych: It’s a uncommon state of affairs. Phil Spencer and Sarah Bond have helped us in loads of other ways. It’s not simply enterprise. They’re simply good folks. Lots of people from Microsoft have helped us out from completely different factors of view, even when it wasn’t essentially simple for them. They love video games they usually’re good folks.

GamesBeat: How would you set followers’ expectations at this level? Is there something you needed to say to elucidate the newest delays, the place it was moved to November?

Ievgen Grygorovych: Our objective is to make a superb sport. We’ll do something to make that occur. Our goal is to not launch the sport in the intervening time the place gamers anticipate it. Our goal is to launch the sport when it could actually meet gamers’ expectations. I’m not afraid to delay the discharge if it’s to perform one thing good. 

We’re positively in a tough state of affairs the place it justifies the delays. It’s onerous to elucidate to folks–you’re on a Zoom video name together with your colleagues, engaged on the design, after which the sirens go off. Half the workforce on the decision has to stand up and go to the shelters. That impacts improvement. You possibly can’t predict what number of missiles Russia goes to launch at Kyiv. When that occurs, the alarm impacts the entire area. It’s onerous to elucidate that to somebody who hasn’t had that have. They could perceive the info, however they haven’t felt it. We will really feel it. We will justify shifting the discharge to make the sport good, as a result of we all know our state of affairs. We all know what we’re going by. Now we have the ethical proper to delay the discharge till we make this nearly as good as we will. 

GamesBeat: You’ve lots of people pulling for you. I believe they’ll perceive.

Maria Grygorovych: Our delays aren’t solely due to the struggle. That’s essential to level out. It’s a giant, tough venture. Now we have points generally that we have to repair. It’s a really complicated sport technology-wise. We’re engaged on new platforms. Generally we have to push the discharge date simply because we’d like extra time to make things better and polish. Proper now it’s largely all the way down to bug fixing and extra bug fixing. There are expectations from the gamers on the market that we wish to meet.

Not each developer has this type of independence. Each developer wish to have extra time to complete their video games. That’s a privilege not everybody on the market has. We don’t have Microsoft demanding that we launch the sport on a sure day. Now we have a really heat relationship. Some folks may not anticipate that they might be like that, but it surely’s fully true in our case. 

Ievgen Grygorovych: Even with out the struggle we might have delays. We have to make the sport higher. It’s coming all collectively now.

Maria Grygorovych: We’re doing this for our gamers. We’re not a giant firm with some huge cash. Each delay, for us, it’s onerous financially. We don’t have cash coming in from different tasks.

GamesBeat: How many individuals are engaged on the sport now?

Maria Grygorovych: It’s 460. That’s probably the most we’ve ever had. Each delay is tough, but when we do it, it’s as a result of we actually want to repair one thing or add one thing. We actually have some points that we have to remedy.

Ievgen Grygorovych: My level is, we’ve not been growing this sport for a very long time. We’ve been growing it for a standard period of time. However for us it’s more durable to foretell an actual launch date. Our capability is just not completely underneath our management. My level in regards to the struggle, it’s about our planning capabilities.

Maria Grygorovych: For instance, it’s a standard state of affairs that each evening we’ll have alarms for an entire week. Individuals don’t get to sleep. Now we have 240-250 folks in Ukraine. In a single week the larger half of your workforce may not have gotten any sleep.

Ievgen Grygorovych: Or the electrical energy is out throughout working hours and it’s solely on at evening. You’ve one hour of overlap between time zones to have conferences. We’re not complaining. However we’re simply making an attempt to speak the info of the state of affairs.

GamesBeat: Is it true that one in every of your folks was killed within the struggle?

Ievgen Grygorovych: He labored on the unique trilogy, sure. And one actor, who did voice-over and movement seize for Stalker 2. He died a number of months in the past. Possibly a yr? Time flows very in a different way proper now.

Maria Grygorovych: It’s a nervous factor. Lots of our folks have members of the family who’ve died within the struggle. Our workers are on the entrance traces. One in every of my greatest fears is that sooner or later it is going to be somebody shut. Individuals die day-after-day. You by no means know.

GamesBeat: Properly, I look ahead to taking part in the sport.

Ievgen Grygorovych: We’re ready for the second we will convey it to gamers. 

Maria Grygorovych: I’m hoping for it. I would like some level of satisfaction. It’s finished! And we’ll maintain going after that. However we’re very drained.

Ievgen Grygorovych: I’m sorry that a lot of this has been unfavourable.

Maria Grygorovych: It looks as if we’ve talked extra about struggle than in regards to the sport.

GamesBeat: It’s actual life. It’s a real story. It’s good to listen to it.